Kobe: Best Shooting Guard Ever???

I noticed you want to compare their stats based on their ages, but wouldnt it be better to do it by the number of years in the league. Also I think you left out the fact that Mike was a champ at the college level also. Kobe is not the best shooting guard ever.

seriously. what the hell are you smoking? kobe is not the best shooting guard ever. you can't compare the stats by age. kobe came straight out of high school. MJ is still the best shooting guard ever.

Stats, records and championships. For starters, Kobe Bryant had something that MJ didn't have which was a complimentary hall of fame caliber player named Shaquille O'Neal. That in itself nullifies your 3-0 championships in K.Bryant's favor. MJ was equally as arrogant, selfish and also had fights with his teammates. Only reason we see it now is due to blogs and television coverage being more pervasive.

Kobe Bryant never had to deal with man-man defense on a nightly basis. Zone defense, flopping and bs calls from referees are some of the factors separating the two players in my book. We've all seen KB drive to the hoop, yell out his now (in)famous 'aye' and get a call. MJ had to deal with being slammed with the Detroit Pistons or a rarely talked about forearm by Greg Anderson. After which a small skirmish ensued, techs handed out and no one was suspended. Fast forward 2009, and if you so much as look at a player wrong a technical foul is called.

The latest era of basketball we are watching is shoddy. All the aforementioned factors along with the 'diva' attitude of these players weakens the argument. As you stated MJ never lost a final; that in itself sets him apart. It's true when they both release their shots we all feel like it's 'bottoms'.

In conclusion, until Kobe Bryant wins 6 titles this isn't even an argument. We can argue what-if's and different stats at specific ages but the point is moot; MJ wins in a land-slide.

At the same age as this cat, I averaged over 40 in the Finals! I was 8 years older than the "Mamba" still dropping 50 on these boys, when you see this cat still dropping 40 when he turn 40...then come holla at me.

To Big balls: Better to do it by age because comparing a 17 year old rookie to a 21 year old rookie seems a bit unfair. A player is expected to be better at 21 than 17 even though both are in their first year in the NBA.

To Blitz: The reason why you compare by age is because he came out of high school. If Kobe went to college for a couple years, there would be no need to compare by age.

To PNMBA: MJ had Scottie Pippen, who will most likely be a first ballot hall of famer (same as shaq). Rodman may also be inducted to the hall of fame. Jordan did not win any championships without Pippen. Kobe actually won a championship without another hall of fame player, which actually hurts your argument. Nice try though.

Kobe did have to deal with Man to Man defense during the first part of his career. Plus, Zone defenses are tougher to play against. Jordan was not allowed to be shadowed and had to be covered one on one most of the time. Kobe has to deal with zones that include three layers of defense against him. See the finals against the pistons with Tayshaun guarding perimeter, rip helping, and Rasheed guarding the basket against Kobe's drives.

Jordan received more bogus calls than anyone. Check the number of free throws attempted between both players and I guarantee MJ averaged more.

To Michael Jordan: Good point

Comparing by age is irrelevant, because "best ever" has nothing to do with which stage in life something was accomplished. For example, my father was dunking a basketball at the age of 15. I didn't dunk until I was 17. However, I was able to dunk with 2 hands while he could never dunk with more than one. Eventually, my vertical leap was higher than his at his peak. I didn't get it until 2 yrs later in life, but I was eventually the better dunker.

Also, it's not enirely conclusive to say that Kobe's 8 additional wins in one season gives him the edge in any way, because you're introducing team stats to compare individual players. There are a number of dynamics within an 82 game season that can dictate a record, most importantly - injuries. It would have been more of a definitive argument if one of the players had a losing record, but even then team standings have little to do with individual strengths. By that same argument, Joe Johnson was a better player than D Wade this year because the Hawks had a better season.

I think most of your counterpoints are on point, but on the defensive end I would say that the one difference between the two is that even though Kobe is as good of an individual defender as Mike, MJ had to play man to man for a full 48 min. Kobe can occasionally hide in the zone if he chooses.

Jordan's career stats still outweigh Kobe's career stats. The only reason that we can have this discussion now is because both paths are so similar. If Phil Jackson never went to the Lakers, this wouldn't have been an argument. I think that in both cases, Phil Jackson as a coach made the greatest difference. Neither wins a championship without him.

Baseball years excluded, MJ won 6 consecutive championships. Kobe won't do that. He might not even get to 6 in total. He is, however, the greatest shooting guard of his generation. There's nothing wrong with him being second best, if the greatest is MJ.

my knee jerk reaction to this was to throw insults at you..but that wouldve been dumb..for some reason wen people compare jordan to kobe i take it personally..i dont know how anybdoy can be a fan of kobe after he showed his character by snitching on shaq but thats besides the point...kobe is a brilliant player with numbers comparable to mike...but w/ mike its about more than the numbers...i look at his career defining moments..The Shot..The Sick Game..and the steal on malone and that final game winner...the ability to take off and play baseball..then comeback and win 3 str8..and lead all his teams to championships w/ for the 1st 3 kobe did not ..the ability to score 40 at age 40..those things are what define mikes greatness..to me at least..evrything is relative..but to me mjs greatness is absolute!

Hey La Mont Chappell II, there's one thing that you are clearly leaving out when you're considering the intangibles.

The rules of the game has changed dramatically to favor shooters and make the game more exciting. We already witnessed the affect of the rules change when NBA players attempted to play the game under international rules. (Note: I love watching D-Wade shoot many free throws in the NBA but very little on the international scene. I'm just saying.)
There are many ridiculous foul calls throughout many games, notably Tim Duncan receiving a technical foul while he's sitting on the bench!

Do you recall what a defensive threat NBA vet-Derek Harper was before some NBA rules limited his game?
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Hands down Beans is definitely in contention when his career is over and finished. Personally I think MJ was a way better defender than Kobe. I recall MJ handling his business on both ends of the court regularly, especially after he bulked up because he was getting beat up in his early years.

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"Jordan did not win any championships without Pippen. Kobe actually won a championship without another hall of fame player . . .
Very true, when Jordan returned to the NBA he said that he would not return without Pippen on the roster and Phil Jackson as the coach.

Previous comments were mine.

To Damien: Good point with the eight games and Joe Johnson. I disagree with the assertion that team standings have little to do with individual strength. There are players (like Iverson) who can compile Jordanlike stats, but cannot win games and cannot win championships. There are many big name players like Stackhouse who hurt the team, which is reflected in the standings.

Also, the defense is not an issue. If anything Kobe has the edge on defense because Jordan was not even the best defender on his championship teams. Scottie Pippen was the lock down guy while Jordan played the passing lanes. Ex. Pippen guarded Magic Johnson in finals, while Jordan guarded Byron Scott. Jordan rarely guarded the best player on the opposition. Kobe has been the best defender on his team probably every year since he was 20. Jordan did not play a tough man to man.

Jordan's career stats do not outweigh Kobe's because Kobe's career is not completed yet, so when you look at Kobe's resume upon retirement, the career stats will most likely favor Kobe.

You cannot exclude the baseball years. Jordan came back and they lost in the playoffs, which cuts off the consecutive championship streak.

Thank you for your comments

To David: You are either a Kobe hater or a Jordan lover. Either way, pull your skirt down and reread the article. Those career defining moments are completely subjective. you talk as if Kobe has never had any defining moments. Shaq did lead the Lakers, but look at what Kobe did in a secondary role. Kobe led that team just as much as Shaq. He was the best player and the best defender on those teams. The team chose to follow Shaq, but there is nothing to suggest that Kobe is inferior for deferring to the senior player. Also, it is impressive that Kobe won a championship without Shaq. Jordan could not win a championship without Pippen. When there are two hall of famers on the team, it signifies that both players have the ability to take the alpha role.

Thanks for the comments

For those who believe Jordan is better solely because he won more championships than Kobe...

Realize there are other shooting guards who have won more championships than Jordan such as K.C. Jones and Bob Cousy.

I do acknowledge and agree that 6 championships means much more than 4 championships. Those rings are difficult to come by. Sir Charles and Reggie Miller would like to have just one title.

However, Kobe has won 4 championships in 12 seasons. It is difficult to see him winning 2 more in his career, but there is nothing in his gameplay that suggests his team is declining. Nor is there any reason to suggest his future teams will not be in a position to compete for more championships. Therefore, he has a real good chance at getting #5 then we can debate this point all over again #6.

I think there are so many Kobe haters that he can win 8 championships and people will still feel Jordan was the superior player. That is what good endorsements and Space Jam can do for a player's image.

I like the article lamont but everybody wants to compare jordan and kobe but we cant cause we dnt know how good kobe would be in jordans era the same as jordan in kobes era so can we just say that micheal jordan was the greatest player of the 90's and kobe was the greatest from 99-until he retires

I don't think Kobe is better BUT Jordan lovers have amnesia. Scottie Pippen guarded everyone from point guard to power forward, he might be the best defensive small forward ever, yet jordan was the lock down defender? Name one person Jordan locked down in route to a title? Scottie has a laundry list....john stockton, gary payton, penny hardaway, magic johnson,... the list goes on. Scottie guarded everybody's most important offensive player, (i say most important b/c sometimes phil would put him on the point guard to disrupt the rhythm of the offense even if that point wasnt the teams best offensive player) while jordan played passing lanes and generally disregarded his man getting help side steals, blocks and boards. Kobe should get credit for guarding every teams best offensive 2 guard or small and he has done it since '99.

Oh and please put the notion away that Shaq carried Kobe to 3 titles. People have amnesia in this area also. Kobe was the go to player on those teams at the end of games, and last time i checked thats when players earn their stripes, Shaq definately softened up the D, but at the end of the day, you can't go to a player at the end of a close game who shoots 50% free throws, its not logical. Kobe was always the closer on those teams, it was his role, and still is. Kobe used to run through the western conference during the playoffs and when they got to the finals Shaq had so much of a mismatch that he had no choice but to be the MVP. But did he run through Tim Duncan and David Robinson? No, duncan and shaq is a wash How about the blazers when they had 12 deep w/ a young rasheed, sabonis, dale davis, brian grant, --none of these guys were stars but they were 6 fouls and big bodies, kobe was the difference. Prime example, game 7 of the 2000 western finals, yeah the game where they show kobe throwin the alley to shaq, kobe had 25,11, and 7, shaq? 18 and 9, --what made them hell was they had 2 alpha dogs who could go off at any time. Sacramento got Doug Christie to try to guard Kobe, because he used to kill them in the playoffs, same thing w/ Bruce Bowen and San Antonio.
--I think this is a good article for discussion, and while i don't think kobe is better (yet) people act is if jordan was GOD, kobe doesn't get half the calls jordan got and jordan was a borderline hack and never fouled out of games. Its called star treatment, only knick fans complained about it when jordan used to get it, but when kobe gets the calls he gets because he IS a star, everybody wants to complain about the refs, thats funny. And Jordan complained to the ref's just as much as kobe. Kobe's much closer to M.J. than people want to admit, he just needs a few more rings to have a legit discussion.

So I see Vanessa Bryant writes under the pen name "LaMont Chappell". Good to know.

I am a true Jordan and Kobe fan. I still have to say Jordan has the edge right now because of the Championships. Kobe isn't done playing yet, so it's not even fair to compare the two quite yet. Jordan won his 1st championship at 29 I think. Then won 5 more after that. Kobe just won his 1st one as (the Leader I won't say go to guy because if you look back at those Lakers championships he was the go to guy at the end of those games, not Shaq) at age 30. What if Kobe wins 4 or 5 more after this? It's not inconceivable. I believe he could still play at a high level for at least 4 or 5 more years given the way he takes care of his body. I will say Kobe makes more contested shots then any shooting guard I've seen in the league.

With all due respect, no person who has a respected opinion believes that Kobe Bryant is or will ever be a better player than Michael Jordan. Im sorry. In so many areas this article is so off base. Really, Im not sure I should even argue the point. I really read the article to laugh. Kobe is a beast... but Jordan was simply so good, that Kobe decided to copy his game, mannerisms, and voice tone.

LFull --- full cosign.

Scottie on defense all the way. As far as championship teams were concerned I really think it is safe to say JOrdan played off of Pippen's efforts and Kobe played off a dominant presence in the center in Shaq.

I'll give Kobe credit because he made it to the Finals last year and won it this year.

Side note - Same difference
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"We just executed the game plan." - Jordan
"We executed coach's game plan" - Bryant

You dont want to compare his time in the leauge cause it makes your argument weaker. Kobe is great and will create his own legacy, but he simply is not better than Mike. As far as defense being tougher now, I hope you just reacted out of emotion and didnt really mean it cause if you did then I cant take ANYTHING else you say seriously. Dude, if they played a zone back then forget Mike, do you know what type of numbers cats like Dell Ellis, Bird, Dražen Petrović, Chuck Person, Reggie Miller, and any number of the MANY shooter back then would have put up! But I digress, Kobe is at best an average defender that benefits from the lack of pure shooters in the leauge now. Most of these teams lack a 2, 3, or 4 that can hit a somewhat consistant 15-17 footer. That by itself makes playing defense that much easier as all a player has to do now is hedge his man towards the help cause there is no threat of a pull up shot...Since you seem to be pulling a lot of points out of the air, I'll do the same. I'm willing to bet that every team that lost to Jordan's bulls would destroy every Kobe & Shaq team that won it all.

Big bawls, You have yet to make any point or refute any point. i question whether you analyzed the numbers and the achievements of both players. Average defenders do not make 1st team defense that many times. Kobe is known for locking down point guards such as Billups, Bibby, and others.

I truly believe the defense is tougher now because you can layer your defense against a star player. I gave the example of the Pistons defense against the 2004 Lakers in the Finals, but I doubt you read it or noticed the defensive scheme. Facing three layers of defense is much more difficult than man to man defense with handchecking. Few remember that offensive players were allowed to use their hands the same way defenders were allowed to. Jordan was one of the best at this and it is clearly illustrated in his shot over Byron Russell in the Finals.

vee, L. full, cornelius, and anyone else besides big bawls, I appreciate the comments, even the one by BDBR.

Good work but Kobe is SECOND greatest shooting guard ever, as I think this title just made him pass Jerry West as #2. He may never pass Michael but he's clearly in the discussion. And by the way, Elgin Baylor wasn't a shooting guard. He was a small forward who played a power forward's game.

-TW-

What is funny to me is that Air Jordan was annointed the best basketball player ever prior to retiring the first time. Everything he did after that only strengthened his reputation.

For some reason MJ was allowed a free pass that no other player has gotten. Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Bird, Magic, etc.

I admit that Jordan is better than Kobe in my opinion, but I have seen Kobe's game grow without any signs of decline. If he gets two more rings, which is very possible (if he takes a pay cut to ensure that good players stay on his team), then where does Kobe fit along the best players ever?

Wilt and Kareem were better than Mike btw...

1)Yes, MJ has a higher points avearge than KB, but MJ also has a higher fga's average. People never talk about that. MJ has shot more than anyone since Elgin Baylor. Some look at MJ's high scoring early years as a "nagative" because he was considered a gun and selfish, even by his coach.

2)Some say Kobe has an advantage on offense because he can't be hand-checked. Well, MJ must have had an advantage on defense because he could hand-check! Plus as stated, Pippen was the better, more versatile defender on the Bulls.

3) After MJ's 1st retirement, under the leadership of Pippen the Bulls only lost 2 more games than before MJ retired. MJ's effect on the Bulls has been over-stated. (btw, only a bad call prevented the Bulls from getting to the eeastern conference finals that year).

4) BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant made made the allstar team for the first time after being away from MJ.(BJ after MJ's 1st retirement,Grant in Orlando. Pippen, after MJ's 1st retirement, became 1 of only 2 players in NBA history to lead his team in 5 different catagories(pts,rbs,assists, blks, stls. And people say MJ made his teammates better??? No, they sacrificed their games so MJ could shine more. MJ actually made them "worse". The Bulls won 6 rings because they had a good team and the Celtics and Showtime Lakers had declined by then. None of the teams the Bulls beat were as good as the Celtics, Lakers, 76'ers of the 80's.

5) People say MJ was the only great player to win without a dominant center. Reflect on the teams the Bulls beat in the 6 finals, how many of them had dominant center's. The Bulls didn't need one to beat them.

6) For those who say Shaq was the reason for the 3 rings in L.A. Go look at Kobe's stats throughout the playoffs, especially in the 2nd and 3rd playoffs runs! Yes Shaq dominated the interior, but Kobe dominated the perimeter! Kobe was much more thana a side kick to Shaq!

7) Kobe got to the finals 4 years after becoming the lead player on L.A. and won it all in his 5th year. MJ took 7 years to get there to the finals. L.A. lost to Boston because they were too young, inexperienced, and soft to beat a team with 3 hungry, experienced, star players, with the best defense in years, lead by the defensive player of the year in KG, all designed to stop the one superstar on the Lakers. Whne MJ faced a strong defensive team(pistons) they prevented the Bulls from even getting to the finals for 3 straight years.

8) Kobe is MJ's equal in skill, with both being better in certain areas. Kobe is a better game by game scorer than MJ. Of MJ's 5 60+ point games 4 were in overtime, one was in double overtime. MJ's highest total was 69pts. Kobe scored 81 in regulation, 62 in 3 quarters, 52 in a half... and has broke MJ's consecutive 50 pt game streak. MJ may be the better defender, but Kobe ain't bad himself. Kobe is the better shooter(long range) and better ball handler, imo. Everthing else is about equal.

9) Kobe should be given some credit for being good enough to enter the NBA out of high school. Jerry west said during tryouts teenaged Kobe was killin NBA vets, and he said it wasn't even close. Another reason MJ's scoring average is higher than Kobe's is MJ came on to a sad team, so he had the "gren light" from day one. Kobe came on to a good team that didn't need to play an 18 year old rookie big minutes. Plus Kobe had to share with a dominant center.

MJ is great but in proper perspective, not more than Kobe or any oher great player for that matter. They all had different paths to success, it's impossible to say who's the greatest ever.

1)Yes, MJ has a higher points avearge than KB, but MJ also has a higher fga's average. People never talk about that. MJ has shot more than anyone since Elgin Baylor. Some look at MJ's high scoring early years as a "nagative" because he was considered a gun and selfish, even by his coach.

2)Some say Kobe has an advantage on offense because he can't be hand-checked. Well, MJ must have had an advantage on defense because he could hand-check! Plus as stated, Pippen was the better, more versatile defender on the Bulls.

3) After MJ's 1st retirement, under the leadership of Pippen the Bulls only lost 2 more games than before MJ retired. MJ's effect on the Bulls has been over-stated. (btw, only a bad call prevented the Bulls from getting to the eeastern conference finals that year).

4) BJ Armstrong and Horace Grant made made the allstar team for the first time after being away from MJ.(BJ after MJ's 1st retirement,Grant in Orlando. Pippen, after MJ's 1st retirement, became 1 of only 2 players in NBA history to lead his team in 5 different catagories(pts,rbs,assists, blks, stls. And people say MJ made his teammates better??? No, they sacrificed their games so MJ could shine more. MJ actually made them "worse". The Bulls won 6 rings because they had a good team and the Celtics and Showtime Lakers had declined by then. None of the teams the Bulls beat were as good as the Celtics, Lakers, 76'ers of the 80's.

5) People say MJ was the only great player to win without a dominant center. Reflect on the teams the Bulls beat in the 6 finals, how many of them had dominant center's. The Bulls didn't need one to beat them.

6) For those who say Shaq was the reason for the 3 rings in L.A. Go look at Kobe's stats throughout the playoffs, especially in the 2nd and 3rd playoffs runs! Yes Shaq dominated the interior, but Kobe dominated the perimeter! Kobe was much more thana a side kick to Shaq!

7) Kobe got to the finals 4 years after becoming the lead player on L.A. and won it all in his 5th year. MJ took 7 years to get there to the finals. L.A. lost to Boston because they were too young, inexperienced, and soft to beat a team with 3 hungry, experienced, star players, with the best defense in years, lead by the defensive player of the year in KG, all designed to stop the one superstar on the Lakers. Whne MJ faced a strong defensive team(pistons) they prevented the Bulls from even getting to the finals for 3 straight years.

8) Kobe is MJ's equal in skill, with both being better in certain areas. Kobe is a better game by game scorer than MJ. Of MJ's 5 60+ point games 4 were in overtime, one was in double overtime. MJ's highest total was 69pts. Kobe scored 81 in regulation, 62 in 3 quarters, 52 in a half... and has broke MJ's consecutive 50 pt game streak. MJ may be the better defender, but Kobe ain't bad himself. Kobe is the better shooter(long range) and better ball handler, imo. Everthing else is about equal.

9) Kobe should be given some credit for being good enough to enter the NBA out of high school. Jerry west said during tryouts teenaged Kobe was killin NBA vets, and he said it wasn't even close. Another reason MJ's scoring average is higher than Kobe's is MJ came on to a sad team, so he had the "gren light" from day one. Kobe came on to a good team that didn't need to play an 18 year old rookie big minutes. Plus Kobe had to share with a dominant center.

MJ was great, but put in proper perspective, not more than kobe or any other great player. They all had different paths to success, it's impossible to say who's the greatest ever.

The Takeover: The Curious Case of Kobe “Bean” Bryant

It wasn’t supposed to happen this way, if at all.

No one was supposed to be able to approach Mike as the GOAT, let alone be in the same breath. But comparisons are only going to grow more intense between the two, especially if the self-styled Black Mamba gets at least one more ring after just obtaining No.4.

Conventional wisdom has been that Michael Jordan had no one to pass the torch to when he left the game in the way that he so eagerly received it from Magic and Bird. Sure, there was Tim Duncan, Shaq, and Steve Nash but “the next” … Kobe, didn’t always measure up. Heck, for one infamous night in Colorado he couldn’t even seem to get out of his own way. Although, to be fair, in the realm of public perception Michael Jordan has had his share of infidelities and was not nearly a warm teammate.

But flash-forward five years and a fourth ring later, and it is Mr. Bryant that can now exhale with a large measure of vindication. At 30, he now possesses the chance to forge his own legacy as he ambitiously set out to do as a brash youngster, fresh out of high school some 13 years ago.

No, the author has surely not dismissed Lebron James. Oh no, Jordan himself was correct in his estimation recently that James has the potential to be the best ever simply because of his unique blend of athleticism, strength, power, and speed. According to the script, we were all supposed to witness the proper passing of the torch with a league approved James victory in June.

And who would argue with such a sentiment. James is a gift from basketball heaven. He is the gift to the NBA that Len Bias, lost all too soon, should have been. Bias, hailed as a combination of Jordan, Barkley, Magic, and Bird, tragically died of a cocaine overdose one fateful day in June 19, 1986. It is our good fortune as fans, and fitting, that we are able to witness James’ ability and skill, to really appreciate what it would have been like to behold the court majesty of the great Len Bias. We can only ponder how things might have been for lovers of the game if Jordan had a true rival in Bias to contend with for supremacy, to test himself by fully.

But it remains to be seen just when Mr. James will earn the title of The King. Questions linger about his mental game and outside shooting. Does he have the drive and focus of Jordan, Kobe, or Magic? There is ample time for James to quiet his critics just as Bryant has begun to silence his own, and while James is well on his way, the moment belongs to the Mamba, who I will argue is at least as good as the True King: Michael Jeffrey Jordan.

Whenever there is any discussion of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, it might as well be a Bears-Packers game in December because blood pressures rise, emotions are stoked, and incredulity, straining on both sides, rules the day. Kobe couldn’t carry Mike’s jock strap. Mike played in a different era, without the zone defenses Kobe sees regularly. Mike regularly went up against ultra-physical defensive play and still dominated. And on and on. To be certain, Jordan’s fans have much to stand on, it is easier to make the case for Jordan. Jordan’s resume is beyond compare. You know the numbers by now: 6 titles, 6 Finals MVPs, 5 MVPs awards, and these merely a smidgen of what Jordan accomplished in his legendary tenure. Jordan’s numbers are staggering. Bryant would have to rewrite his own history to catch up on that basis.

But like so many things in life and the game itself, when boiled down, the debate is really simple: Who is the better player?

In full disclosure, I grew up a hard, hard Jordan fan, and still am. Like many kids, I cried as a 12 year-old when Jordan first retired, and was as gleeful as a glutton at an all-you-can-eat buffet when he returned and established himself as the GOAT. I was convinced, along with most of the basketball-loving public and the world, that Jordan was as good as it was gonna get.

Enter Kobe “Bean” Bryant. A Jordan clone if I ever saw one. We’ve all heard (and seen) the similarities between them in style on and off the court, it is both eerie and often times annoying, and on this score writers like Bill Simmons are on solid-footing in their observations of No.24.

We witnessed his 2005-06 brilliance, and most of us had to admit that he’d given that particular MVP award away not on the court, but in a Colorado hotel room in December of 2003. And that’s not a knock on Nash. Many great performances would Kobe give, but still one first round exit after another was his lot. It seemed like his talent was going to waste.

Last season, it finally seemed like he’d climbed the mountain and overcome the 2004 Finals’ debacle against the Pistons (where he displayed awful shot selection), his personal issues, and well-documented run-ins with coach Phil Jackson through the years. Only, the Boston Celtics and Kevin Garnett had other plans. Once again, a better team playing tough defense prevailed over his vaunted Lake Show. Like Jordan, Kobe and his Lakers would have to figure out how to counter physical defenses.

But a couple weeks ago, he got it done. Yes, he had Pau Gasol, an awake Lamar Odom, and an improved and clutch Trevor Ariza. Derek Fisher is always there when it counts. But they were his guys, molded by his leadership. One might ask the question, is Kobe in Mike’s league?

The answer is yes. Here’s why, and why he is arguably a better player.

Mark Jackson has come under tremendous fire of late for offering his view that Bryant will go down as the greatest player ever. But in essence, he was echoing what some close to the game have whispered: Kobe is the more skilled player. The irony here is that while everyone has openly celebrated James as he prepares to take the game to new heights with his unique ability, Kobe’s game may actually be … Jordan’s on steroids. It is a heretical notion, to be sure. And of course Bryant benefited from having Jordan to study, as Jordan also studied Dr. J, Magic, Bird, and the greats. Bryant was one of James’ idols and James studied Bryant.

Bryant is an objectively better ball-handler, possessing the cross-over and moves of Allen Iverson, with the shooting range and prowess of Larry Bird. Jordan is the more explosive player, having had a ’44 inch vertical to Bryant’s ’38 inch vertical. He did things the league had never seen, and his hang-time remains hard to believe. Jordan’s hands are also inordinately large, giving him the advantage in at-the rim and traffic encounters. Other than that, the two are identical, right?

Phil Jackson coached Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. He never asked Jordan to do the things that he’s asked of Kobe in facilitating the offense, and, until Ariza arrived, consistently guarding the other team’s top scorer. Those were Pippen’s responsibilities. Scottie Pippen is the single most underrated and underappreciated NBA player of all-time. People that really know the game will tell you that. Easily top 20 all-time.

Pippen could control a game with defense, tempo, passing and with points – like Magic Johnson – who Pippen himself kept in check, freeing up Jordan to score at will in the ’91 Finals. Upon Jordan’s two-year hiatus, Scottie Pippen lead a Bulls team of otherwise average talent minus Jordan to a 55-27 record, just two wins shy of the team’s overall record the year before with Jordan in ’93. If not for some dubious officiating in the ’94 Eastern Conference Finals against the Knicks, the Bulls would have been in the Finals again, four times in a row. It is a miscarriage of basketball justice that Pippen was robbed of the MVP award in 1994, all due respect to Hakeem Olajuwon. But Pippen’s importance to the success of Jordan is evident.

In evaluating the greatest players of all-time and whether Jordan or Bryant is better, statistics and championships are not the crucial criteria for two obvious reasons. The first is Bill Russell, the consummate winner, competitor, and professional. 11 rings, but he did it in an era with only 8 teams and only a few had a serious shot of winning the championship each year. The other is Wilt Chamberlain, and his numerous scoring averages and records. No one is ever going to touch 50 points a game for a season. Or ask Oscar Robertson, who averaged a triple double for a whole season (more than once before they kept track) how it feels to be left out of the discussion in earnest.

Or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, he only set the NBA scoring record and won numerous titles himself. Remember him? He’s busy in the lab cooking up another potential monster in the post, the still-green Andrew Bynum, who’s shown several flashes of brilliance this past regular season.

You see, it is not an exact science, but an art, evaluating the GOAT. How unstoppable? Dominant? Well-Rounded? Tenacious? Competitive? Skilled? Winner? These are all intangible considerations, among others. I will now set out specific arguments in favor of Kobe Bryant as the better player than Jordan and expose flawed arguments.

1. Did Kobe ride Shaq’s coattails?

Kobe played with Shaq and won three NBA championships. Because of this, his success is often denigrated. This despite the fact that Kobe was the clutch go-to-guy in the 4th and raised the play of Shaq and his teammates’ games in Game 7 of the 2000 Western Conference Finals against Portland when they were down 15 points in the final period. This despite the fact that it was Kobe, and not Shaq, who lead the team in the deciding Game 6 of the 2000 Finals by hitting ice-vein shot after shot, making play after play, and pass after pass, to finish off a tougher-than-expected Pacers team that found Shaq, at critical junctures, in foul trouble and unsure how he should attack.

What is missed in this is that Kobe clearly could have averaged 30 points himself as “the guy” on any team and certainly won a few more scoring titles to buttress his own resume. But he sacrificed for the team. Yes, Kobe did so unwillingly more often than we’d all like, but he did it nonetheless. What is missed is that we witnessed what it would have been like to have Michael Jordan playing with Wilt Chamberlain. Not an easy feat, though Jordan would often muse aloud during his career about what it would be like to play with Pat Ewing, David Robinson, or Shaq.

Kobe understood the game as any knowledgeable student of the game does: big men are rare, and having a skilled big man like Shaq was a competitive advantage that lead to close, high percentage shots. That is just the proper way to play the game. Kobe still posted 18-24 points a game during those years, despite Shaq getting 35 touches a game. Like Jordan, Kobe was also an excellent defender, especially during these early years, holding players like Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady scoreless for entire halves and 4th quarters. Both have similar defensive resumes, with Jordan being voted Defensive Player of the Year during an individually masterful and historic 1988 season. Still, given the superior conditioning and skill of players today, I’d call it a push here.

Magic recently remarked during the Finals’ telecast that “all of us” have egos – referring to the great players – that they all have a vision about how winning is done, precisely because they’ve been so successful at it. So, it stands to reason that Jordan would have had issues playing with a Shaq or Wilt because of his own ego; and that like Kobe, Jordan would not have been comfortable playing second fiddle for long with his skill set, work ethic, and knowledge that the No.1 option wasn’t taking the game as seriously on a regular basis and consistently showing up to camp out of shape.

2. If Michael hadn’t retired the Bulls would have two more championships.

This is presumptuous at best. People forget that Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson (and their squads) were in a brutal Western Conference and yet dominated as they peaked during the mid-nineties. Basketball historians and the detail-oriented fan will tell you straight-out that Jordan’s Bulls team struggled against those Rockets and Spurs teams during the regular season in the 90s. They were .500 against those type of teams at best.

Perhaps Jordan would have performed similarly as Bryant did against Dwight Howard in this year’s Finals if he’d played in that scenario. But we’d never know. What we do know is that Jordan never faced a team with a dominant and skilled defensive big man in the Finals. Karl Malone, an all-time great with quick hands, didn’t have the defensive presence of a Dikembe Mutombo, Ben Wallace, Kevin Garnett, or Dwight Howard. In many ways, at the Finals level, the teams that Kobe faced were always the best defensive teams that also had big men and were much tougher to score on than Jordan’s Final’s opponents.

3. The NBA is all about match-ups, and Kobe continues to outperform tougher competition than Jordan faced on a night in, night out, basis.

This is a fact. Granted, Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant played in different eras. But do we really think that a slightly taller Kobe Bryant (Kobe is closer to 6’7 than Mike’s clear 6’6) would not have also feasted on the comparatively smallish guards of the NBA during the late 80s and 90s? Joe Dumars, a great defender with a stocky build, deceptive leaping ability, top-notch footwork, and quick hands regularly gave Jordan fits. The reader may say “Yeah, but they still had to use the Jordan Rules.” True. And Michael had his nights against the Pistons, but they made him work. Another player Jordan had trouble with was John Starks of the New York Knicks. Again, a demonstrably smaller player.

Facts such as these are glossed over by the NBA writers and historians because of allegiance and loyalty to Michael and his image. Jordan and Kobe are friendly by all accounts, it is common knowledge that they talk and text frequently. When asked directly at a skills camp who would prevail in an individual game not too long ago, Jordan stated that he would beat Kobe one-on-one and possessed a better chance to stop Kobe than vice-versa. Perhaps, Jordan was bull-strong and had the better leaping ability.

Kobe has always laughed off the comparisons himself and been rightly deferential. Usually, NBA greats avoid such direct questions about others and their standing. That Jordan, he of the immaculate resume, legendary skill, and media savvy would condescend to contemplate the outcome of a man-to-man contest with Bryant says something about how close the two are as basketball players.

To provide more context, let’s delve deeper. Another one of Jordan’s contemporaries was Ron Harper, who in his prime with the Cleveland Cavaliers was known to regularly hang 30 or 40 points on Jordan before Harper hurt his knee. In the small world of the NBA, Harper became a championship teammate of both Jordan and Bryant. The point is not that the 6’7 Harper was better than Jordan, because he wasn’t, but that the league is about match-ups.

Today, Kobe consistently faces shooting guards at least as skilled as Harper and others from Jordan’s time, on a nightly basis. Tracy McGrady, Jason Richardson, Ray Allen, Dwyane Wade, Vince Carter, Richard Jefferson, Pietrus, and on and on. Shooting guards are all over the place. Kobe is not a rarity as the average shooting guard is now at least 6’5 and possesses similar talent and skill as Bryant … yet he is far and away better than his contemporaries. Only Wade is in Bryant’s current class as far as offensive and defensive skill at the shooting guard position.

In Jordan’s day, the player’s similar to him were Harper, Clyde Drexler, and Dominique Wilkins. Reggie Miller was more of a shooter, but was still a great, clutch player in his own right. But to think that Jordan wouldn’t at least struggle against defenders with size like Ron Artest, the long Tayshaun Prince, McGrady, Paul Pierce, Shane Battier or Pietrus is wishful thinking. For years, the “book” on Kobe was to drape a Tayshaun Prince-like guard/forward over him that was just as athletic and make him shoot over the top. Ask the Pistons, in 2004 it worked. Pierce and Boston’s zone defense corralled him last year, and Bryant didn’t exercise this particular demon until he finally subdued Pietrus this year: a tall, physical, athletic-type guard that in the past would have given Kobe all he could handle.

Unconvinced? I bring you to the peculiar case of Gary Payton, one of the five best defenders ever. Jordan’s ’96 Bulls were loaded, much-touted and justifiably so, and had just set the league record with 72 wins. Everyone asked themselves: Could the Sonics keep up with them in the Finals? George Karl, he of historic coaching ignominy, realized too late that perhaps he should put “the Glove,” the 6’4 (on a good day) Defensive Player of the Year on Jordan. What happened? Jordan had two of his worst Finals games ever as the Bulls eked out the title. See “Deconstructing Kobe,” a sound piece of hoops journalism and analysis: http://www.forumblueandgold.com/2009/06/16/deconstructing-kobe/

Payton harassed Jordan into missing 13-15 shots over two of the last three Finals’ games, and since Jordan was only able to get off about 20 shots a game over that period (Payton was unparalleled at a lost art – ball denial), he shot a paltry 33% against Payton. Once again, Jordan was given fits by a shorter, crafty defender. Kobe Bryant has made his living off dominating smaller guards and being more skilled than taller guards.

This is not to say that Kobe is always the most prolific shooter himself, as he often puts up a 40% shooting night against top defensive talent, but that is at least on par with Jordan and Kobe does it against more equal competition and unquestionably better-conditioned athletes. Mike still has the edge in field goal percentage because he successfully attacked the rim more, had large hands like Dr. J, and had the best relationship with the officials the league has ever known.

Kobe still manages a decent amount of free throw attempts over the course of his career, but it is King James, and not Bryant, that the officials respect. No way do the referees call 5 or 6 technical fouls on Jordan during the playoffs like they did with Kobe on this most recent title run.

In researching this article, I also came across an interesting tidbit: When Michael Jordan played without a Hall of Famer (e.g. Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman), his Bulls teams posted no winning seasons, even in an Eastern Conference that saw the Celtics, Bucks, and 76ers declining as the Pistons rose. But when Kobe Bryant played without a Hall of Famer (e.g. Shaq), his Lakers teams posted two winning seasons. These teams featured the likes of Smush Parker and Brian Cook, in a deadly Western Conference, and still managed to win 42-45 games. Look it up. This is verifiable proof that Kobe is in Jordan’s league.

We can only guess how the perceptive Ralph Wiley would have summed up the Finals in the context of the Jordan, Kobe, and Lebron debates. Wiley was famously prescient, having once identified Kevin Garnett as one that Kobe would have to do battle with in order to get to the promised land. Like many have noted, the literary world remains poorer for his all-too-sudden departure.

It has already been quite the journey for Bryant and still more may transpire. One could bring up the hand-check rule, instituted because of Jordan’s greatness and today’s tighter officiating. In contrast, today’s zone defense can be used to argue in favor of Bryant. Both are valid points.

In the end, the game always evolves, whether or not we like the given agent of evolution. Michael raised the NBA to new heights and was the standard by which his competitors were measured. In his own way, Bryant is doing the same, exerting an indelible influence on today’s great players, showing how to prepare and compete at the highest levels, as evidenced by his quiet leadership during the 2008 Summer Olympics.

Two different people; similar, yet worlds apart, both dogged and driven by a hatred of losing. Two different paths, but the same destination: greatness among the NBA pantheon, with one, James, waiting in the wings.

But for now, Kobe Bryant will take that torch thank you very much.

Hey man, why not seperate the personal stat and team's winning? You know Kobe had Shaq, right?

When MJ was 24 yrs, what he had? A team with only one super star and a child-like coach.

MJ and Phil developed the Bulls from a weak team to a champ. Pippen was teached by MJ to be tougher. Grant was not a good PF when he came to NBA.

About the good teammate thing, MJ was NOT self-fish. I mean, if compare to Kobe.

MJ never disrespect the older star, and Kobe said Malone had do something to his wife..he said that on the media.

MJ never tries to make any great teammate leave the team, and Kobe makes Shaq leave.

MJ always can get along with his teammates, but Kobe has many years can't get along with his teammates.

As for personal honors, I don't think Kobe can win more MVPs, scoring titles.

And Kobe's playoffs stat will never reach MJ's level.

Kobe's career stat will never reach MJ's. Even you don't count the years before 21 yrs old.(the age MJ came into NBA)

You will never see Kobe still play in age of 39, 40. MJ did that make his career stat drop down, or he would have perfect career if he didn't come back in age of 39.

I mean it's Kobe's advantage when compare to MJ, Kobe won't end his career like MJ, but still, MJ's career stat better than Kobe's.

I don't know if Kobe can win more champs, but I personally think this 4th champ is the first champ Kobe win by his own, as a team leader, as a number one player.

But MJ was always the no.1 player in Bulls, and he improved Bulls' two key players: Pip, Grant a lot.

If it's Kobe in Bulls, he would give up and want to leave the bulls if he has a team MJ had from 1984 to 1987.

In Jordan’s day, the player’s similar to him were Harper, Clyde Drexler, and Dominique Wilkins. Reggie Miller was more of a shooter, but was still a great, clutch player in his own right. But to think that Jordan wouldn’t at least struggle against defenders with size like Ron Artest, the long Tayshaun Prince, McGrady, Paul Pierce, Shane Battier or Pietrus is wishful thinking.

----good offense players not equal with good defense players, Ron and Shane are better in defense, others are not

----McGrady, Prince are not good in defense.

----Ron Artest---why not take Dennies Rodman, it's Rodman and Dymars defensed MJ back to 80s. Rodman is one of the best defender in NBA history.

----Battier-----he is slow, he is not strong, he just can guess what Kobe will do next. It doesn't mean he can guess MJ, too.

Mike still has the edge in field goal percentage because he successfully attacked the rim more, had large hands like Dr. J, and had the best relationship with the officials the league has ever known.

-----nope, after 1995, MJ mostly used jump shots to score. And he still had 49.8%, 48% 46.5% FG%

He was getting old. Lets see if Kobe can make 30ppg, 49.8% FG in the age of 33.

Kobe is not a rarity as the average shooting guard is now at least 6’5 and possesses similar talent and skill as Bryant … yet he is far and away better than his contemporaries.

In researching this article, I also came across an interesting tidbit: When Michael Jordan played without a Hall of Famer (e.g. Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman), his Bulls teams posted no winning seasons, even in an Eastern Conference that saw the Celtics, Bucks, and 76ers declining as the Pistons rose. But when Kobe Bryant played without a Hall of Famer (e.g. Shaq), his Lakers teams posted two winning seasons. These teams featured the likes of Smush Parker and Brian Cook, in a deadly Western Conference, and still managed to win 42-45 games. Look it up. This is verifiable proof that Kobe is in Jordan’s league.

------Pippen was not a super star in the beginning.

Pippen was not qualify for a HOF before Bulls' three-peat.

MJ without Pippen at Bulls---only three seasons. And one of them, MJ was injured.

And MJ helped Bulls increase winning games at least 10 when he was a rookie.

Kobe struggled for 7 yrs to win his own champ, but still, he has potential teammates, and a great coach, a great boss always looking for better players. You can check out what MJ have back to 1984 to 1987 on google.

Joe Dumars, a great defender with a stocky build, deceptive leaping ability, top-notch footwork, and quick hands regularly gave Jordan fits. The reader may say “Yeah, but they still had to use the Jordan Rules.” True. And Michael had his nights against the Pistons, but they made him work. Another player Jordan had trouble with was John Starks of the New York Knicks. Again, a demonstrably smaller player.

-----Starks--yap, MJ scored 33+ppg against Knicks, Starks really get MJ into truble.
I guess back to 1993, there's gambling issue got MJ into trouble for two or three games. Starks? Never happen even when MJ came back with older age.

-----Joe Dumars--MJ admit he was tough defender, but still, MJ had great personal stat against Pistons.(For your information, MJ had a 80+% FG and 50+ point game record against Pistons, and another 70% FG plus 61 pts game against Pistons)

I mean, both of Pistons and Knicks were not trying to shut down MJ by one or two defense players, they use 5 players to trap MJ, and sometimes knock him down.

Oh yeah, Payton doing great in last two games in 1996 finals, but not last longer.

In contrast, today’s zone defense can be used to argue in favor of Bryant. Both are valid points.

-----Todays wing players can easily get a FTA, that's the big difference between two eras.

Imagine it, if MJ in age of 24 play in today's era, what would happen?

He could develop his muscle by new tech and supplyments. He could easily get free throw opportunities because of the new rules. He could drive more often because he know he will get a foul.

The big difference is the way deffense players can do in MJ's era could be a foul in today's era. And hand-check, is the best way to stop a wing player with great ball-handling, the NBA ban it just for the audience. People just like to watch those wing players drive and make a great shot.

Just check out how many FT Wade had back to last Heat's finals games. That would never happen back to MJ's era.

This is not to say that Kobe is always the most prolific shooter himself, as he often puts up a 40% shooting night against top defensive talent..

----lol, why Kobe's opponents have TOP DEFENSIVE TALENT?

Who tell you?

I only know the Rockets has two tough defense players, and that's all.

Ron uses his muscles, but back to 80s, muscle men always beat MJ up, but never slow down his scoring.

Shane---good defender. But it doesn't mean his ability works on MJ, too.

Shane is slow, not strong, he is just smart enough to know Kobe's next step.

Sorry man, no disrespect, but Jordan was inarguably superior to Bryant. Not as big a gap as some think, but of the 5 basketball positions all time, I'd say the SG is the most safe.

im just getting back to reading this.. lamont chappelle dont tell me to "pull my skirt" down just bc i have a different opinion..i didnt disrespect u so dont disrespect me..in my post i said kobe was a great player and in my opinion i thought jordan was better.

HAHAHA!!! you're full of shit!!! MJ baby!...the game changer...the greatest of all time!!! if he never changed the game...no one would be playing at this level of basketball!!!...

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